LOVE STORY: JOHN F. KENNEDY JR & CAROLYN BESSETTE: Official Podcast Episode 2: NAOMI WATTS AND CONNOR HINES

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Thank you both so much for joining me. Um, Naomi, I wanna start with you. This is your fourth time out with Ryan Murphy, and it is a significant departure from your past projects together.

So I'm wondering what drew you to this role?

NAOMI WATTS: Well, I think when Ryan invites you, it's just a strong hard Yes. Um, he believes. You can do it. So all of the self-doubt that you have swirling around about, oh, how could I ever play Jackie o? Um, she's, you know, America's darling. I look nothing like her. All of that, you know, the pressure, everyone knows her and feels they own her.

How could I possibly pull this off? That is there. Um, but Ryan has this wonderful ability in making you believe in yourself that you're capable of doing it because he knows your. He knows what you can do and he's not gonna just throw that around like it's, you know, ice cream for a little kid to have. He, he knows that, um, I, it would be something I could manage.

And um, so I, when he made that first call, I was like, oh my God. Oh my God. Um, all the thoughts and then, okay, let me read it. And, um. I read all of it. Mercifully, this was one of the occasions where all of the scripts, well, at least for my character, were available. And I was just like, holy moly, this is, this is quite beautiful.

And also another, um, yes, another woman playing Jackie Kennedy, but um, a different part of her life. So we hadn't seen much of that.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Connor to, to take that, uh, headphone cord and maybe try and Connor can you take that headphone cord and do something with it?

NAOMI WATTS: like over here.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: That's great. Yes. That's

NAOMI WATTS: Okay. Sorry.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Thank you. Don't apologize. Uh, Naomi, you used the word managed and I just wanna strike that from the record and say you do far more than manage.

Um, but as you're hinting at, I can imagine there would be some reservations in taking on a role with so much preconception and a character that's been taken on by some great actresses before you. But I wanna focus on the exciting part of that. So what aspect of taking on this role for you was the most exciting?

NAOMI WATTS: Um, the challenge I would say always when I'm scared of something in such a specific way, I am always curious and, um. Certainly the, as I read it and dug into her as a, in the recent reset research process, um, I learned a lot more about her and, you know, not having grown up in America and being obsessed with the Kennedys in, in the same way that, um, Americans would have been, although knowing them enough and knowing, you know, the.

They wore beautiful clothes and there was this beautiful tragedy and not, sorry, cut that. Not beautiful, like horrible tragedy. Um, but how she handled herself through the grief and how she brought a nation together, um, was extraordinary and her coping skills, but then also had this little. Sense of humor that I knew nothing about, but she had a lot to do with him becoming the man he was.

Um, those sort of things just really gave me a, a better understanding and curiosity about how to play her and, um, yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I am glad you point out that humor, because I found that to be one of the surprises and delights of the show is a character like Jackie having a sense of humor that I didn't know that she would have. Uh, now Connor, this is your first time working with Ryan, and so I'm wondering for you, what drew you to the project?

NAOMI WATTS: I mean, I had been fascinated by the Kennedys for a long time. I was a huge fan of the Crown, and that sort of propelled me down a rabbit hole about the Kennedys. I just started reading all these books, starting with Joe, the patriarch, and working my way through the generations. And then when I got to John and Carolyn, I was just so.

Taken aback by their love story, but also how misunderstood I felt they were at the time. Um, how, um, sort of warped the narrative was about them, especially. Carolyn who, you know, at the time I think was sort of represented as somebody that was icy and withdrawn. But then when you research her, by all accounts, she's incredibly warm and vivacious and curious.

And I just thought, oh, this is such an opportunity to, I think, kind of correct the narrative, but also, um, write a love letter to the two of them that I don't think, um, they, um, were able to have at the time of their marriage. Of course when, when Ryan announced the show, I did just everything in my capacity.

I think I offered to work crafty. If he didn't want me to write. I said, I just need to be in the vicinity of you making this. I've never felt so drawn to a project in my life. I've never gone after something with such bigger, but I truly felt that, no, I just had to be a part of it in, in any capacity. And of course, I, I lucked out with the role that he did give me.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Now, Naomi, you mentioned growing up in Australia. Naomi, you mentioned. Growing up. No, you're all good. Naomi, you mentioned growing up in Australia, and so I'm wondering at that time when, when you were over there, how much knowledge did you have about the Kennedys? Was it something that was spoken about over there, or was it a uniquely American conversation that was happening?

NAOMI WATTS: Um, yeah, so I grew up in England and Australia and there was a great awareness of this tragedy. Um, and, um. No, not, again, not, not, like I was saying before, I'm not, um, we weren't saturated with it. Um, but those images are everlasting, obviously. Um, and, uh, but when the death of Carolyn and JFK Jr, um, occurred, it was like, uh. You know, the only thing I had to compare to it is when Princess Diana died, you knew exactly where you were, who was in the room, and what, how, what you were feeling. And um, and that's even being, like I said, removed not being American. Um, I, I was very, very aware of, of, you know, that memory of that sudden, sudden, awful tragedy.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: And how notable and speaking to the prolific nature of your career that you have taken on both the role of Jackie Kennedy

NAOMI WATTS: What is wrong

EVAN ROSS KATZ: of Princess

NAOMI WATTS: Ill, I'm definitely, ill take me to the hospital.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: No, no. Now.

NAOMI WATTS: but yes, it did play a part. I, I had, you know, gone down that road before of that kind of level of pressure and responsibility and, you know, um. I do find it interesting to take on those kind of challenges and also to explore this kind of character who was, you know, forced into a situation that they weren't necessarily prepared for that kind of scrutiny constantly and how they handled it.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Now, Connor, you were pretty young during the courtship of JFK and Carolyn Bessette. What first introduced you to their story and the cultural importance of it?

NAOMI WATTS: Right. I grew up, um, I grew up right outside of New York City and my dad commuted into New York every day, and so I just remember. There were images, sort of seeing them kind of everywhere on the news or you know, at the checkout line at the grocery store. But it was really only when I was, um, doing my research about the older generations and eventually reached John and Carolyn that.

I remember, um, with my manager at the time, they said, you know, they wanted me to make, uh, you know, kind of a bucket list of what I wanted for my career. And I think I had three things on there. And one of them was a limited series about John and Carolyn. And I remember saying to her, but no one will give me this opportunity to write this until I'm much further along in my career.

And then I think three months later it was announced that Ryan. Was doing this anthology. And uh, my first thought was like, okay, well, you know, there goes my chance to tell that story. But then I thought, oh, I wonder if any, if in any capacity I could be a part of this. And so it was quite fortuitous the way it all sort of worked out.

But, um, I recommend making bucket lists. Okay. Because they have some power to them. Yeah.

I was gonna say that's very affirming to the idea of making bucket lists. Okay, good advice. Um, now it's clear to me why people were obsessed with this story, but what's so fascinating is the way that even today people remain so fascinated by it. For both of you, what do you think it is about this story that gives it such permanence?

Well, I think with, specifically with the tragedy in Dallas, it sort of cemented the family. In American culture and history indefinitely. Mm-hmm. Um, the Jackie as the sort of formidable, graceful widow who is a tower of strength and I think who more than anyone as you see in the show, sort of solidified the legacy of Camelot after the passing of President Kennedy.

And then I think because of that, the country really felt, I think, a sense of responsibility for John and Caroline. That they grieved as a nation together. And so they, especially John, with that image of him saluting the casket, I think in that moment he became America's son forever. And so I do think from then on it sort of, um.

It set up what would inevitably be inevitably be an impossible standard for whoever was to marry somebody that the country felt so protective of. And we haven't really had anybody have that sort of position in our history or in our culture since they're sort of unrivaled in, in that sense. Yeah. And how.

I mean, my understanding, not necessarily facts, but how, um, how she took that role of like, um, wanting to shape him mm-hmm. And, um, become, you know, um, something as special as, as how she saw Jack, her, her husband, and, um, to protect the legacy at all costs was what I understood. Um, and in strengthening. That legacy and, uh, you know, this is why I suppose she maybe had not as much.

Um. Respect for mm-hmm. The shiny Hollywood people out there and, you know, um, and so yeah, we, I think the fascination, to go back to your question, it remains because, um, the stories ended in tragedy and the what if is just so powerful and how would it have ended up? How can we, I mean, we've all created it in our imaginations and so, um.

Then there's the other thing I think that is just in the zeitgeist right now. I think people are fascinated with the nineties. Um, and leave it to Ryan Murphy to know exactly when that was gonna happen. Yes, exactly. Um, and yeah, I mean the music, the clothes. I, I see my kids who have not lived through the nineties being obsessed and, you know, sort of showing me things and I was like, oh yeah, I did that.

And yeah, I wore that. And yeah, I love that song because I, you know, so, um, yeah, I think, I think it's, it's never one thing. Um, but all of those things colliding at once. And I also think. I also think one of the most remarkable things about her is that despite the microscope that those children were raised under, by all accounts, she raised such kind and respectful children that could have so easily, could have gone by the wayside with everything that they'd gone through.

And I think you really get a sense of that in Naomi's performance of just how. Loving and protective and the lengths that she went to, um, to maintain a sense of normalcy and integrity for, for her children. And I think that's one of, um, her lasting legacies along with, you know, being the first lady that she was mm-hmm.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Now, Naomi, a line of yours that really stuck with me is the public is always holding a flower in one hand and a stone in the other. Do you ever feel that yourself as a public figure?

NAOMI WATTS: Well, I think it's human nature to, um, to have opinions and be critical. You compare yourselves to others, which brings up insecurities. And so you might do have a little talk behind someone's back. But, um, you know, I think yes, in the public eye that becomes probably more extreme. And at this particular moment, I feel like we've got a stone in each hand.

Um, not, there are no flowers being held. Um, and that is, um, sort of sad and heartbreaking. And, you know, what was so memorable and wonderful about Jackie Kennedy, um, Jackie o Kennedy, was that the grace and strength. Um, despite the hardships and tragedies that she walked through, um, was still able to keep people together. And, and so that line sort of says it all, um, and how different it, the, it has, you know, how it's changed now, I think. Mm-hmm.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Right. And Connor, I love that you finished my sentence as I'm spelling out the line, so it's like, it's clear to me like these lines have really. Stuck with you. And so I'm wondering, during the writing process, what was it like for you to sort of give a voice to Jackie? Were there past interpretations that you'd seen that you were calling on and building her out?

Were you using the research that you'd done? How did you formulate your take on her?

NAOMI WATTS: I mean, I think the hardest part was. Just distinguishing the public persona from the mother and the friend. And I didn't want people to feel like, I wanted it to feel like when you were with them that you were with a family, not royalty, not a political dynasty. And so I think there had to be more of a sense of playfulness amongst the family that, yes, we project all of this onto them, this fame and celebrity, but.

That's something that's projected onto them, that's not something they're necessarily internalizing. And so when they're all gathered together, it's a mother and her two children having dinner. And so I think it was just really important that you felt the sense that this was a family first and foremost, and that you weren't watching a show about, um.

Politics or royalty. And that, I think that just meant doing lots of research so I could find the voice behind the one that was routinely presented publicly. Yeah. And, and, um, there were enough clues from, even though she was quite private towards the end of her life, and there wasn't a lot of footage or, um, you know, appearances available, um, there were enough clues from the times that she was on camera.

Was being recorded with, uh, uh, in the presence of her children, that she was incredibly warm and mm-hmm. Um, affectionate. And, you know, this is what she talked about was like, um, uh, you know, having, making the White House feel like a family. Place, not just a political place, um, that, you know, there were, so it was important to have flowers in the room and, you know, school children coming through so that, you know, and she had a memory of being there, um, as a, as a, as a school girl.

And so she wanted to have it feel warm and homely and atmospheric. Not, not a cold, frightening place, right?

EVAN ROSS KATZ: So there are a few voices in the public consciousness, more recognizable than Jackie Kennedy's. Uh, so Naomi, can you talk about your approach to quite literally finding her voice?

NAOMI WATTS: Yeah. Uh, it, this was definitely a grind, um, and a lot of my fear was attached to, um, the fact that her voice was so unique and so re um, so memorable and, um. Not being American. So I really had to put hours on the clock to really, uh, get anywhere close to having it sound. Not just like a voice by the way, like, you know, her hers.

Um, because you don't want just, just a voice, uh, that that can be created through technique, but you have to live in it and it has to become yours and, you know, um. That's, uh, an undertaking into itself. But, um, so I worked with the great dialect coach Jerome Butler, and I've worked with him many times before.

I listened to everything available. Um, and as I said, there was not as much available, uh, you know, in the latter part of her life. Um, and her voice did change. It dropped. As, as mine has, especially today with a bit of a cult. Um, but, um, yeah, she had a, a lot of sing song in her voice and um, and certain sounds that were distinctly Boston and some New York sounds as well.

And then also a little bit of like European in there. She spoke several European languages. Um, so, um. It was a, it was a lot of work and, uh, quite a scary process, but, um, hopefully I did adjust it.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I think you

NAOMI WATTS: does and then some.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah, she sure does. But, but

NAOMI WATTS: you want to get to a place where you don't just know the lines and know how to say them, but that you can actually walk around talking in that voice all day long.

Um, much to the chagrin of my husband and be like, oh God. Okay. Okay. Can you talk to me like a normal person?

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Now Connor, when shaping this story and the characters that make it up, what was one of the biggest challenges that you faced?

NAOMI WATTS: I think, you know, ultimately you can, you can only research so much and then at a certain point, which I think is similar to as an actor, you have to sort of let go. Then just be in it, right? You have to stop reaching for being striving for perfect perfection or striving to replicate the story and trust that you have all of the information and that you can confidently make choices and stand by those.

Um, I was, I was just daunted with the fact that I really wanted it to feel authentic. I wanted to do justice by the relationship. And so for me, it was just about that moment when I had to put the books down after reading them over and over again and say, okay, Connor, you know the story, you know the rendering that you'd like to, to have of this, and you just have to trust it and take that leap of faith and, and move forward.

But honestly, it was, it was, I mean, you're working with somebody like Naomi Watt's. Jackie O and Sarah Pigeon and Paul and Grace, and once I saw everybody embody their characters, I felt such a sense of comfort that, okay, we're all gonna be running with this together. And you feel you're in safe hands when you have somebody like Ryan behind you and the cast that we had and the directors that we had, so.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Hmm. Naomi, it's notable that your character and the character of Carolyn never meets. Do you imagine that these two characters would've gotten along?

NAOMI WATTS: I mean, dare I say it? I, I, I think I'm going to go with the fantasy that Yes is the answer that they would have gotten along, she would've liked, um, her spunk mm-hmm. And her, um, ability to. You know, be strong and stoic, but not a spectacle at any time. Um, she wasn't chaotic or, um, she, she, I think, I think she met, there may have been some parallels drawn, um, in terms of how she saw what she was capable of and the salt of who she, she was.

And, um, it again, another great tragedy that they never did meet.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Hmm.

NAOMI WATTS: Yes, because I, I feel like they both. Had a self-possession Yes. A really strong sense of who they were. And I think they, but didn't shove it in the face of others. No. And then I think in kind, they responded to other people who also stood in in themselves and had a sense of who they were and responded to, um, authenticity from people.

Um, and yeah, I definitely think there are, there are some parallels in, in the power that they both possessed. Um, and I, I like to also clinging to the fantasy that they would've gotten along quite well.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I'm with you. So zooming out on the experience of making this show, I'm wondering for you both what your favorite part of the shoot was.

NAOMI WATTS: Gosh. Um, can you think of one while I'm thinking? Yes. Um, I mean, watching, I still clinging to. Watching them meet for the first time felt so exciting and electric. 'cause it was like, oh, we're gonna go on this journey. And um, I felt butterflies watching them meet. And it just gave me a sense of, oh, this is gonna be very fun to watch these two people navigate this relationship.

But I would say something that really I wasn't expecting and really surprised me was the. Dynamic and familiarity amongst the Kennedy family. Mm-hmm. When you, your relationship and chemistry with Grace and Paul felt so real and I was so moved by it in a way that I wasn't expecting. And I thought all of those scenes together were so, I felt like I was with a family and yeah.

Um, it just felt so real and genuine. Well, I was gonna say echo that, um. I had, I know Gracie. So that was nice. There was a shorthand there. And also we'd work together, um, on alls fair. And, um, Paul, I knew was, uh, not a, a experienced actor, but so that always makes you a slightly nervous, but. As soon as we met, I could tell he was in his body and that's probably comes from having modeled.

Um, and he was looking you in the eye and so therefore he was emotionally available and. You know, the way I wanted to portray Jackie again with someone who is open, relatable, warm, loving, strong, wise, and a little sense of humor. Um, so I, I wanted to know that it was gonna be okay to touch him, to ruffle his hair, to pinch him in the ribs, and, you know, do things like that and that, you know.

It's great when you're working with someone who's fairly new, it sort of like makes them, you know, the connection, um, a little, uh, closer in a, in a faster amount of time, but a quicker amount of time. Um, so I, I would say those scenes were, were really lovely. And, um, and I can also speak to probably the worst of, of it was when we were outside.

Um. Shooting and there were paparazzi around. So many paparazzi, so many paparazzi. But having worked long enough in New York City, I know that's a thing and I am. Sort of able to shield it. Um, now I can compartmentalize, but there's a couple out there that are particularly aggressive and want to become, you know, part of the story.

Rile you up. Mm-hmm. And in actuality, in this case, it was really helping me. was, it was like, like, okay, this would've been a very Yes. Well, because we, similar situation, because we had. Paparazzi that we hired. Yeah, we hired, yeah. And then directly behind them. Yeah. With the real, for the real ones. So it was an extremely art imitating life.

Yes, yeah. Situation. Although our actors were slightly more graceful in their approach than the actual paparazzi.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Amazing. Well, thank you both so much for your time and I want to congratulate you both. I love this show and it's been a pleasure to watch and it's been a pleasure chatting with you both today.

Likewise. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much.