Episode 2 | The Shards Official Audio Podcast

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Welcome back to The Shards official podcast. I'm Evan Ross Katz, podcaster and pop culture provocateur. Joining me today is none other than the incomparable Evan Rachel Wood and Wes Bentley 

How are you both doing?  

WES BENTLEY: I'm doing good.  

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Fantastic. 

WES BENTLEY: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I wanna learn about how this project came onto both of your radars. Wes, obviously, you're no stranger to the Ryan Murphy universe, having starred in several seasons of American Horror Story. Evan, you last did a project with Ryan Murphy on Running With Scissors quite some time ago.

So how did this project come to both of you?  

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: I did Ryan's first film, actually, Running With Scissors, and I had such a great experience working with him and working on that film, and I've sort of secretly been hoping that one day I would get a phone call from him to jump on board something else, and it happened with The Shards.

Ryan gave me a call, and it's a, kind of a no-brainer when he calls you and asks you to do something. So I immediately said yes.  

WES BENTLEY: Yeah, I, um, actually, I met Ryan before I, I came onto American Horror Story. I, I auditioned and got a role in a, in a pilot that we did. We had a great experience on that, and the character in that was...

actually ended up being very similar to Terry. So I think we got along so well working on that and on American Horror Story and the character being so similar, I think, uh, I think that's what he told me that's what made him think of me. And, and like Evan said, it's a no-brainer. If, uh, if Ryan wants you to, to shoot something, it's gonna be a...

it's always gonna be a great experience, so I was excited to come on.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Hmm. So I wanna learn about this relationship between Terry and Liz. Is it fair to describe it as dysfunctional? Is that accurate?  

WES BENTLEY: I think that's being nice. 

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: I'd say that's more than fair. Okay.

WES BENTLEY: That's, like, a soft r- uh, representation of the relationship.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Yeah, demented, you know-

WES BENTLEY: Yeah, on a good day, dysfunctional ... 

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: is also appropriate.

WES BENTLEY: Demented. 

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah, so talk to me about building out that relationship between the two of them because despite the fact that it might be dysfunctional, perhaps demented, they do choose to stay together.

WES BENTLEY: Mm-hmm.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Yes. Well, it's complicated.

It's a very complicated relationship. Obviously, it's incredibly unhealthy and, as we said, dysfunctional, but I do believe somewhere in there is love.  

WES BENTLEY: Mm-hmm. 

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Um, whether it be healthy or not, I think they do have a connection.

WES BENTLEY: Mm-hmm.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Um, and we'll see that more and more, I think, as the show goes on. What do you think, Wes?

WES BENTLEY: Yeah, they clearly, I think, have fallen in love at some point - Uh, have a lot of love for each other still. Uh, he's a messed up guy. He's a power hungry guy. He is hiding his sexuality, uh, from himself even. They hurt each other immensely, but at their core they know they're gonna be together forever.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: There is an element of a trauma bond there as well- 

WES BENTLEY: Yeah

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: You know, and I'm sure there are many elements keeping them together, certainly the status and, and the money, and, and their daughter. But I don't think that Liz would be in that much pain- Mm ... and anguish if she didn't really at her core care about him and want something real with him at the end of the day.

I don't think she just married him for the status and for the money. Mm-hmm. I think that was certainly a perk for her. Right. Mm-hmm. You know? But, um, but I think she does care about him.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Right. 

WES BENTLEY: Yeah, similarly, I would say, you know, Terry does what he wants. So if Terry does what he wants, he would just leave her if he didn't really love her and really need her in his life.

And that's the thing about it, he needs her, and he may never admit that. If he really wanted to leave her, he would've done it.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Hmm. And Wes, Terry and Liz have a, quote, "Understanding and an arrangement to their marriage." How would you describe this arrangement?

WES BENTLEY: I think... Well, I think he's definitely saying that, um, without much truth behind it.

I think the arrangement is that he will abuse the relationship, and she will deal with it. He needs to be dominant. He needs to consume everything in front of him, and that includes his own family. It's sort of said with a smirk, like, "Yeah, we got an arrangement. Sure."

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I feel like Terry's so often saying things with a little bit of a smirk.

WES BENTLEY: Yeah. Well, yeah, I think he thi- he's a, he's cynical. At his core, he is a man hiding himself from the world, who he truly is or who he wants to be or... So I think he's cynical about the world because he's cynical about himself, and, uh, needs everything to be a bit, with a bit of humor. Otherwise, I think he would, you know, break down if he really took a look at it.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Hmm. Evan, would you say that Liz shares that cynicism?

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: What I love about her is she just tells it like it is. And that comes across incredibly rude and cruel sometimes, but she's kind of like the witch in Into the Woods where she's not- ... good or bad, she's just right, you know?

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: And-

WES BENTLEY: I love it

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: ... and it's, it's horrifying sometimes- Yeah you know? A- especially in the way she speaks to her daughter. It's just- Mm ... it's, it's awful.

WES BENTLEY: It seems that that's the tone in the household is we're all, we're all doing that to each other and like if you can't do that, you're not gonna make it through the day.  

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Yeah. Right. Liz believes the world is cruel- Yeah

and it will swallow you up unless you know how to survive and if you become a shark.  

WES BENTLEY: I think that's so beautifully said and I actually think that's probably a point that Terry and Liz connect on is that I think he sees the world that way too.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah, and I think that's so evident in the show is that one of the commonalities I picked up on was this, the way that they both see the world, and I think it's something that really connects them.

Now Evan, in Liz we're seeing a woman who seems to have reached her breaking point. She doesn't have the life she'd imagined or wanted. Would you say that we're meeting her at a particularly turbulent moment in her life or is this the culmination of a life of turbulence?

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: I'd say it's a culmination of a life of turbulence.

I think that's why she fought so hard to get out of her hometown and why I think very early on she realized that she was going to have to fight and survive and make something of herself. She, she was gonna be married to this Hollywood producer and it's like everything she's ever wanted, right? This glamorous Hollywood life. 

And clearly it did not turn out the way that she thought it was going to turn out and I don't think she's made peace with it yet and so she's sh- pretty bitter and pretty angry and I think she's incredibly jealous of her daughter and I think she sort of sees her as competition- Mm ... rather than, you know, the apple of her eye. 

You know, and that in itself is just so toxic and it, I think it just tells you how stunted Liz has become.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Totally. Toxic- Yeah ... but makes for incredibly engaging television I will say.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: So engaging, yeah. What a fun character to play.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Totally. 

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Yeah. What a, what a-

WES BENTLEY: For your entertainment ...

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: I don't wanna be raised by this woman, but man do I love watching her-

WES BENTLEY: Yes.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: on the screen just tear everything apart in her path.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: This is true. Yeah. Now Wes, Terry is certainly a quite, how shall we say, uh, morally compromised. How did you approach portraying him with a complexity without softening what he represents?

WES BENTLEY: Well, this is always a trick, right? You can't judge them while you're acting them.

I have to sort of explore what's going on there. I don't have a clue, being Wes, what is going on there, so I have to use what's given to me. And him hiding his sexuality his whole life, or trying to hide his sexuality his whole life even from himself, it just created, like, a monster, I think. Someone who just cannot deal with it and know how to get through a day with that feeling, and he just... 

The only way to heal that is the feel-good. It's the drugs, it's the sex, it's the make a, make a hit. It's the instant gratification in any form you can get it, just to deal with that feeling of, gosh, devastation of not being able to be who you are, or being confused by who you are, thinking you're wrong for being who you are. 

Or, you know, something is wrong with you. The world sees something wrong with you. And that pain is, I think, too immense for him to deal with, and so he covers it with a lot of Drugs, alcohol, and sex, and power games

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Hmm. It's interesting what you're talking about because by giving him that underbelly and sort of the, the reasoning behind his impulses-

WES BENTLEY: Mm-hmm

EVAN ROSS KATZ: it makes him not just appear as a villain on the show. 

WES BENTLEY: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: It makes you recognize the fact that Terry and Liz both have had these experiences that have shaped who they are. Yeah. Um, and it's fun- Yeah ... that we get to explore some of those. Now- Yeah ... I wanna bring, uh, Hayes into the conversation here. So Hayes, who plays your daughter, both Terry and Liz treat their daughter as an extraneous member of the family.

They're nice to her when it benefits them or makes them feel better, and Hayes, who plays your daughter, it's her first time acting, and so I'm wondering, was it difficult for you both to have to be so duplicitous to the newbie?  

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Yes. Yeah. Yes.

WES BENTLEY: Yeah.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: She's so lovely, and I think I felt very protective of all of the younger-

WES BENTLEY: Me too

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: actors on the show. Oh, yeah. You know, especially w- us in the parental roles. And so yes- Yeah ... I hated being mean to Hayes.

WES BENTLEY: Yeah. Same. Same. I feel the s- But

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: We had a good laugh about it.

WES BENTLEY: Yeah. And she's tough. She's a great actor.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: She is tough. 

WES BENTLEY: She's able to flip on a dime, like she's super sweet and then it's, when we get in it, she's just cutthroat herself and strong that way.

The, I felt the same way. I just wanted to protect all those, all those young actors and, but they've all got it together pretty good, and they, they can give it back, which is really impressive. So it kinda felt like once we were i- you know, action and go, everyone felt safe, I think.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Mm-hmm. Speaking of the action and go, do you both remember your first day on set?

WES BENTLEY: Yeah, my first day was in the hot tub, so in a Speedo walking around a bunch of- ... 20-year-old, good-looking, fit- ... people.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: My first day was in a Speedo is just the best- Yeah, clearly ... of my life.

WES BENTLEY: Welcome to Terry. Yeah.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: That's so fitting for the show, yeah.

WES BENTLEY: Yeah. Yeah. Just creeping out the kids from day one.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Oh. 

EVAN ROSS KATZ: What about for you, Evan?

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: I wanna say my first scene, I think my first scene was the one with Hayes in Liz's bedroom. 

CLIP: Oh, honey. Men All your meaningless flirtations you think will get you somewhere and make you happy. Will you just give me the compact and have another Chablis, Mom? 

WES BENTLEY: Wow, 

EVAN ROSS KATZ: what a way to begin.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

WES BENTLEY: I mean, not that every, any scene is light.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: This is true. 

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Yeah.

WES BENTLEY: Yeah. 

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: It's definitely one of those projects, though, because it's, it's so immersive. Like, the- Yeah ... sets. Yes. The second you walk in- Yeah ... you're in another time. You're in another universe, you know? And then you- That's right ... get those wigs on, and the nails, and the costumes, and- Oh, the character just comes quite quickly, I think.

WES BENTLEY: Oh, yeah. Agreed.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: You fall right into it, yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: We have to talk about that wig. Liz's wig, I mean, Stephen's wig and Liz's wig need their own podcast, quite frankly. Um, but can you talk about sort of-  

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Stephen's wig ...

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Stephen's wig. Yeah. Come on now.

WES BENTLEY: Yeah. They're both great.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: But can you talk about how putting Liz's wig on, like, sort of how that helped you find the character?

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: For me, acting feels like channeling sometimes, and I don't quite know what I'm going to do until I'm in hair and makeup- ... and in the costumes and on the set. And then you start to, you go, "Okay, I have these nails, so- Mm ... maybe I do these different things with my hands, and maybe I sit a little differently in this dress, and..."

This wig makes me feel a certain way. You know, you just, you sort of, you just start to feel it, and then out pops this character.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Mm.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: You know?

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I wanna close out by asking about some fun on-set experiences. Now, before we hit record on this podcast, you were talking about, um, some musical theater sing-alongs.

Um, but yeah, I wanna learn more sort of about the vibe on set. I, I get the sense from talking to the actors on this show that this was a particularly close-knit group.  

WES BENTLEY: Yes. And these guys would just be singing musicals all day, and it brought so much joy and, and f- and excitement. Like, I just loved sitting... 

And they all have great voices, and they know all the w- all the lyrics and all that stuff. So for me, just sitting there and enjoying it. And Evan was, like, in the middle of it all, so she, it was, like, a joy- ... watching them and her. Made me so happy.  

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Well, so much of the cast were mutual- uh, musical theater babies.

Mm. You know? And, and actors from New York and stage. So my favorite memories were anytime we were about to wrap, Jordan and I would start singing Last Midnight from Into the Woods. And that was, that was the cue that we were all about to go home. Not, not to, like, take too much credit, but I think Jordan and I were really holding it down. 

WES BENTLEY: Oh, you were. Oh, you were. 

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: With the musical theater singing.

WES BENTLEY: You, Graham in there too with you, but Graham- Oh, yeah ... but you two were the core of my joy.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: We get quite a bit of dancing coming up in episode five, but I, I feel like we need to put forward the possibility of a Shards musical episode. I'm just saying.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Honestly, it could happen on this show. It could ha- you never know. It really- I would not put it past them- Yeah ... at all, to do one episode that was just a musical.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I would love that.

WES BENTLEY: It would be disappointing if we didn't, Ryan.  

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Yeah. Yes.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Is there anything, you know, we're about less than a quarter of the way through the series at this point.

Is there anything that you both can tease about what's ahead for your characters?  

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Unraveling. 

WES BENTLEY: Mm-hmm.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: To say the least.

WES BENTLEY: An unraveling. Yeah, I think that's the best way to put it. Mm-hmm. Concise.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Well, thank you both so much. I really appreciate your time, and congratulations on the show.

WES BENTLEY: Thank you so much.

EVAN RACHEL WOOD: Thank you so much. 

WES BENTLEY: Thanks for having us.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah, so much fun.

That's all for this time. On the next podcast, I'll be joined by costume designers Lou Eyrich and Josh Marsh to talk about all the '80s fashion featured in the show. Be sure to rate, review, and follow The Shards official podcast. You can check it out on Hulu or wherever you get your podcasts. And watch new episodes of The Shards on FX and Hulu. 

I'm Evan Ross Katz, and I'll see you next time.