Episode 4 | The Shards Official Audio Podcast

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Welcome back to The Shard's official podcast. I'm Evan Ross Katz, podcaster and pop culture provocateur. Joining me today is none other than producer and actor Jordan Roth. 

Jordan Roth Now, you in the role of Steven in The Shards in so many ways feels prophetic.  

JORDAN ROTH: Do you feel that way? I just love that so much. Um, y- yes. It's, it's been this unbelievable exploration through the land of Steven. 

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Now, one would not know from watching this show that this is actually the very first time that you've acted on screen, which is simply unbelievable.

CLIP: Terry really appreciates this, and how kind you were when his wife threw her little alcoholic tirade at Debbie's party the other night. That one's a mess.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: So talk to me about how this project came on your radar and the early conversations that you had with Ryan.

JORDAN ROTH: It's a bananas story. So first I will say, uh, I was always an actor as a young person, and this was always my dream.

And then right after college, I started producing and thinking I would circle back to acting very quickly, and decades later, here we are. This story starts with, um, the queen of the Murphyverse, Sarah Paulson. She was talking to me one day about my Instagram, and she's like, "You know, Ryan and I talk about your videos all the time." 

And I was like, "Well, that's unbelievable because my fantasy is to be a Ryan Murphy villain." And she said, I will never forget this, she said, "Leave it with me." Okay. A year later, I'm in Paris. I'm preparing for my performance at the Louvre. And I get this text from Sarah saying, "I've just landed in Paris.

Where are you? We're coming." And who is the we here? Sarah and her movement director. She explains how she works and what she does, and I'm like, "I think I need you for the Louvre." Julia now becomes my movement director for the Louvre. Cut to- Julia's on set with Sarah and Ryan, start talking about what they're working on and me, and Ryan says, "Do you think he can act?" 

And she says, "Oh, I know he can," because she was working with me on this performance. I get a DM on Instagram from Ryan Murphy saying, "I wrote you a part. Call me." 

EVAN ROSS KATZ: And you did it, baby. Ah. Now, you've built an extraordinary career as a Tony Award-winning producer, theater leader, and fashion icon, and so I'm wondering what made this role and this show the opportunity to be your acting debut?

JORDAN ROTH: Well, there was no version of life in which I was saying no to Ryan, but I think the reason why it was right for my debut is what he saw in me and in Steven. Steven is an artist, and he has... He knows what he has inside him, and nobody else can see it, and that pain and frustration and need to be seen for what you can do, that is what is driving Steven at his core, and- It is why it was so perfect for this new chapter of my creative life, because that is what I was experiencing.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Let's talk about the wig. We have to talk about the wig.

JORDAN ROTH: Let's talk about the wig.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Cause I feel like a, the wig is the window into this character in so many ways.

JORDAN ROTH: Sure is. 

EVAN ROSS KATZ: So yeah, let's talk to me about it.

JORDAN ROTH: All right. Here's the story of the wig. So in that first conversation with Ryan, he said, "I really imagine that Steven is looking at all these, looking outside of the world that he lives in.

He is looking to London, he's looking to Paris, he is looking to the music scene, he's looking to the fashion scene. He is looking at new wave and the new romantics, and synthesizing all of this because he is really ahead of his time.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah.

JORDAN ROTH: This was very exciting, and we were exploring and thinking, and I was talking about that.

And then Brent, who does my hair in real life, this hair, um, brought up David Sylvian, the lead singer of the band Japan. And it just seemed like this, this is, is it. This is it. This is the blueprint. And Ryan had an ins- impulse about, um, the underroots of the color, and so it really evolved, but that was the core, David Sylvian.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Mm.

JORDAN ROTH: And then the shoes. The costume team, Lou and Josh and Sarita, brought in these fabulous YSL shoes with this great heel, because my impulse for Steven was that he is pushing the boundaries just as far as he can before his hand gets slapped. The heel is just that much bigger, but it's not, you know, a feminine heel.

I put the shoe on, and I was like, "This is perfect." And I will tell you, months later, when I got home and I looked in my closet, I was like, "Oh, I have that shoe." Literally. And I am wearing them today.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Wow. 

JORDAN ROTH: These are the Steven shoes. They're actually my, my set of Steven shoes. Steven's shoes are back in LA, waiting to be inhabited again.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Mm. Oh, I like that.

JORDAN ROTH: Um, manifesting.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: You once said that, "Fashion is a vocabulary for me, a way to express myself to you and to myself." And so I'm wondering how Steven's wardrobe helped you to fully realize and render who this person is.

JORDAN ROTH: I am always working outside in and inside out, and I think, you know, clothes speak very loudly to my body and to my heart.

And I think that kind of sensitivity to The garment is very much akin to a sensitivity to the words and a sensitivity to the scene, the, the physical space that the production designers create for us. It's all of these aesthetic and poetic references that if you can open your ears and eyes and heart and brain and body to, they feed you, they give you so much And then, and you don't even kn- have to know what or why, you just have to, Martha Graham said, "Keep the channel open." 

EVAN ROSS KATZ: You would've been very young in 1981.

JORDAN ROTH: Thank you very much.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: But I'm wondering what you-

JORDAN ROTH: But alive.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: But alive. I'm wondering what you remember, maybe not about 1981 specifically, but about the 1980s, and particularly about queerness in the 1980s. Because being a queer person today and being a queer person in the 1980s, two completely different lexicons.

JORDAN ROTH: Yes. Well, first of all, we didn't even have that word. We weren't even that. You know, I think there's, for many of us, the, there's the '80s that we lived through, and then there's the '80s of our memory and our references.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yes. 

JORDAN ROTH: First, the music. I mean, give me the Go-Go's all day long and I'm a happy gay. Blondie, Depeche Mode, like, yes.

The icons that find us in our brains and in our hearts that allow us in fantasy to express a part of ourselves that, um, that we're not safe to, not allowed to express in our own lives is how we survive-

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah...

JORDAN ROTH: and how we thrive.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah.

JORDAN ROTH: That is seminal for the '80s, or seminal for me in that process, and you see it in Steven a lot.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Do you think you, Jordan, would be friends with Steven?

JORDAN ROTH: Oh, yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I think so, too.

JORDAN ROTH: I love this human. 

EVAN ROSS KATZ: So you have-

JORDAN ROTH: You too, I think.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I think so, too. I think so, too. You have some really delicious scenes- Delicious ... specifically with Evan Rachel Wood and Wes Bentley.

JORDAN ROTH: Ugh.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: And so I wanna know what it was like working with those two esteemed actors.

JORDAN ROTH: They are so incredible. You know, one of the joys of filming television is when the camera's on them, they are so mesmerizing. What is happening in their eyes, in their face, the way they process language and emotion and darkness and desire, it is astounding to get to watch, and it is really a blessing to get to act opposite.

And I felt that way about the whole cast. This is the most extraordinary group of people, first as humans, and then as artists.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: My sense from having conversations with so many of you is how much you enjoyed making the show together, but how much you also enjoyed spending time together, you know, between takes and off set as well.

So can you talk about the unique bond that y- that this cast had?  

JORDAN ROTH: The camaraderie of making a show like this is intoxicating, and I think- You know, this was such a magnificent group of people, and I don't know if you can make a show like this without loving the people that you're making it with. When you watch the show, it's real. Everything you think is happening among those humans, the love part, not the- ... I wanna kill you part.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Important to distinguish.

JORDAN ROTH: Important to distinguish.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah. Steven's relationships are, at minimum, I think it's fair to say, fraught. He seems to be at odds with just about every character, if not the whole world.

JORDAN ROTH: Yeah, well.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: He's been used by-

JORDAN ROTH: That's the world's fault, not his.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Say that. He's been used by everyone around him for a really long time.

JORDAN ROTH: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: What do you think it is about the Schaefer family that has Steven stay? Why doesn't he get up and leave?

JORDAN ROTH: Ugh. Why do any of us stay? He has an optimist's heart, and he comes to every one of these interactions with, "Maybe this time."

It's very Sally Bowles. "Maybe this time. Maybe this time they're gonna see, because I'm bringing this." And he keeps coming with it because he knows it's there. It starts with, "Okay, I got it now. You'll see. You're gonna see. How could you not see? Look at me. Look at what I got." And it ends in rage, and that rage is what propels the next and the next and the next, and it's why, no spoilers, but there is a rabbit hole, and he's fallen down it. 

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Well, let me ask you about that. Because we're four episodes deep, and Steven's obviously going to play a critical role in the back half of this season. Is there anything that you can tease about Steven's journey ahead?

JORDAN ROTH: All right. Well, we're, we're at episode four- 

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Uh-huh ...

JORDAN ROTH: which means next episode Steven breaks loose.

The next episode is one of my favorites. It is an all skate. We were filming this for, mm, two months, this one episode, and Steven really starts to pull the strings and turn the screws. All I can say is something wicked this way comes.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: It sure does. Yeah. Before we wrap up, I have to ask, Jordan, are we going to see you on screen again?

JORDAN ROTH: Oh my God, yes.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: We have to.

JORDAN ROTH: Ryan Murphy has created a monster, and I am never leaving. That's a promise.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Perfect. Jordan, thank you so much. And congratulations. Thank you. I've just so enjoyed watching your journey that predates The Shards, but it's really fun to see this, like, capstone moment for you, and I love watching Steven, and I look forward to what's ahead for him.

JORDAN ROTH: Stay tuned. 

EVAN ROSS KATZ: We will be.

That's all for this time. On the next podcast, I'll be joined by a couple on the brink, Kaia Gerber and Graham Campbell. Be sure to rate, review, and follow The Shards official podcast. You can check it out on Hulu or wherever you get your podcasts. And watch new episodes of The Shards on FX and Hulu. I'm Evan Ross Katz, and I'll see you next time.