Episode 5 | The Shards Official Audio Podcast

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Welcome back to The Shards official podcast. I'm Evan Ross Katz, podcaster and pop culture provocateur. Joining me today are two stars of the show, Kaia Gerber and Graham Campbell.

Kaia, it's great to have you back. 

KAIA GERBER: So good to see you, Evan.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: And Graham, lovely to have you here in New York with me. Now, we've gotten Kaia's history with the show, but Graham, I wanna know how this show came to you because correct me if I'm wrong, but this is your very first TV show.  

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: You're not wrong at all.

It's my very, very first TV show.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: So how'd this come on your radar?

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah, well actually, Kaia and I have known each other, you know, sort of socially, professionally for a little while before. When I saw she was attached to it, I was very excited, 'cause I think she's just perfect for it, and I think e- everyone can agree with that now.

I was hankering for an audition after the announcement, and luckily, that came through the inbox, and I did many, many auditions for many different roles, which so I kind of felt at that point like I was right for the shards, but we just didn't know exactly where that puzzle piece was gonna fit. And then Ryan worked his magic and created the ensemble that you know as, I don't know, w- what do we, what do we call ourselves? 

KAIA GERBER: The shards.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: The shards? I want, I'm looking for something a la the Brat Pack.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: The shardees?

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah. The shar- yeah, the shardees. The shar- Hard D.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: So these two have quite an interesting relationship on this show. And so I'm wondering, how would you characterize their relationship at the start of the show?

KAIA GERBER: I mean, I think so much of their relationship was clear in the book and then in our incredible scripts, and Ryan, you know, really used the book as a jumping off point and created these characters. 'Cause the book is very much Brett's point of view, so it was really fun to work with Ryan and our writers, and Graham and I personally, to discover what their relationship looked like, what they meant to each other.

And I think what was so lovely about it, especially those first few episodes before there starts to be some turmoil, there's, like, the seeds of resentment maybe, but-  

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: What do you mean turmoil?

KAIA GERBER: Um, I mean, I'm not sure. I don't sort of-

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: But does stuff get... Does it...?

KAIA GERBER: Stuff d- it do- stuff doesn't go amazingly, but it's, but, like, it, it's gonna be okay I think.

But ultimately, the first few episodes, it was so fun 'cause we really got to just be kids with each other. Like- Yeah ... I think that was what was so fun to explore was this relationship where, like, we've known each other so long, and, and Susan and Tom have known each other so long, and just being, like, super playful.

I think we got to a point where I was like, "Graham, I, I think you can't pick me up and carry me out of every single scene. I think we have to sometimes-

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah, I s- I dis- I disagreed ... 

KAIA GERBER: I have to sometimes walk." And he disagreed and he won that fight, so I'm pretty sure-

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: And you'll see it in every scene ...

KAIA GERBER: the first few episodes, Susan's legs never carry her out of a scene now.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah, I think it, it's nice because on paper, they're these sort of A- all-American high school sweethearts, which is cool to kinda tap into that archetype, and I think we had a lot of inspiration to pull from in media for many decades, but especially the early '80s. And then what was even cooler about that is that we got to flip the archetype on its head and kinda watch two people that seemingly have it all or devolve

into, uh, something much more complex and more interesting to play with. So it was nice that we set ourselves up on such a high out the gate to be able to fall as far as we did.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yes. Yeah. I definitely agree. Devolve is, is certainly an apt word here. And I'm wondering for you both, what do you think it is that happens that sort of begins that journey for them?

Is it fair to say that Robert's presence in this group is what really begins the unraveling? Or do you think that he spurred what was already inevitable?

CLIP: Hey, Susan, can I talk to you? 

You need permission to talk to your boyfriend?  

Relax, Tom

EVAN ROSS KATZ: How do you both see it?

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: We have a lot of, there's a lot of back and forth. I know there's discourse about the book too, about whether Robert even exists, 'cause I think he's just sort of like an objective correlative for like what it took to shatter this group of friends.

Because there's so much insecurity at the end of high school about things you think you're allied with and what you're not. So I think that whether Robert was there or not, these things were gonna happen, but he was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back.  

KAIA GERBER: I, I agree with Graham that I think, you know, this friend group is going through a very pivotal time in a young adult's life where you're, uh, having to sort of evaluate your friendships and go, "Are we friends out of situation and convenience, or are these friendships that I'm going to be able to maintain as I go into my adult life and as we separate?" And so yeah, I think Robert really was this sort of, um, it was kind of like the perfect recipe and the perfect person. He really projects what we project onto him. So I think, you know, like where Susan was feeling insecure in her relationship with Tom, I think Robert just amplified that.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah, and I think what's kinda expert about Robert, the way he's penned and also played by Homer, is that he knows how to kinda tap into everybody's pressure points. And Tom is definitely struggling with insecurity as a man and kind of lack of a male role model in his life.

KAIA GERBER: Really, Graham and Homer have such a great friendship and such a great dynamic, and are so funny, and sometimes drive me absolutely insane when the two of them get together.

Like, I truly cannot stand it, but I love them so much.  

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Especially when it's like 1 or 2:00 AM.

KAIA GERBER: Oh, yeah, when it's 1 or 2:00 AM and Kaia's a little grumpy-

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: just wanna go home ...

KAIA GERBER: then they, that's when they decide to do a bit.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: That's when the bits come out.

KAIA GERBER: And the bit will go on until 7:00 AM when you wrap.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah.

KAIA GERBER: It was really important for me, and I think it was very evident in the script, that Susan really loves Tom, like genuinely, genuinely loves him. Even in those moments, you know, when Robert and Tom are fighting, Susan has to go to Tom, because that's who she's protective over, and that's who she knows, even if Tom maybe is the instigator or the one that started it.

And, and because of how great Homer and Graham's performances were, my reaction to those fight scenes, I was genuinely so scared. I was so freaked out. They felt so violent, and of course they were always okay, but I love that moment, I think it's in episode four, where Robert kisses Tom mid-fight. 'Cause how emasculating for Tom in that moment, and it was such a like, the air just gets sort of like sucked out of the room.

Um, yeah, sorry that was a long-winded answer, but  

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: I, I personally loved it.

KAIA GERBER: Graham couldn't get enough.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: That was more Graham than Tom.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: The fighting or the kiss? Both.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Both, but mostly the kiss.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Mostly the kiss. Yeah. Graham, it's interesting because Tom is a really complicated character who's kind of masquerading as a simple one.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: How would you describe the journey that we go on with Tom, and would you say that it's spurred by Robert's presence?

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: I think simple or not, he has the same if not more ambition than everybody else. And what was really interesting to play with was how do you demonstrate incredible ambition, incredible want, incredible feelings of betrayal, while only having a certain amount of tools to articulate those to the people around you?

KAIA GERBER: Mm-hmm. 

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: And just watching someone kind of fall on their face again and again, even if their heart's in the right place, not knowing how to get that point across or, or get what they want. It's really, uh, he, he, he turned into sort of a, a tragic figure in a way.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Mm. That's very well said.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Thank you, Evan.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Uh, okay, so here's one thing I'm really wanting to ask you both. So Susan and Tom both seem relatively unshaken by the gruesome murders- ... occurring in their lives. Brett is obviously incredibly invested- ... and has his theories, however, Susan and Tom don't seem to be experiencing that same fear.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Why do you think these characters feel so safe?

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: I think that the, there's a, a obscene naiveté i- w- in the two of them and kind of in this group of friends because of this pocket of privilege that they've lived in their whole life where they assume that nothing can or would ever affect them. So it's like, yes, there's horrific violence happening in Los Angeles, but God damn it, I'm gonna win homecoming king.

And that's what's important to me. Yeah. So that was my take on it, is that, yes, there's bad things happening- Yeah ... but that's not gonna affect us in Malibu, you know?  

KAIA GERBER: Yeah, I think you can hear about it, but it's very easy to other yourself. Why would that happen to me? And suddenly the proximity gets closer and closer and closer, and our characters are having to sort of reevaluate what they've built this sense of security off of.

I also just wanna say I think it was so great working with Graham. I, and having to say this in front of Graham is hell on earth, so just, Graham, close your ears. But Graham comes from a theater background, and so as the material started getting more intense and, you know, these characters are getting more, thank you for still hiding, Graham- 

more faced with their own mortality and the horrors, um, kind of get louder and louder- It was great because Graham and I would rehearse so much. I grew up doing theater, and so to have a scene partner like Graham so we could really rehearse these scenes and really find what this meant together, I, I in all earnestness just thought, "Thank God it's, it's Graham." 

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Hm. I was... Can I say something about that?

EVAN ROSS KATZ: You can say whatever you want.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Really? Yeah. I love podcasts. Um

KAIA GERBER: Careful, Evan.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: I thought what was so exciting about the process of this show being created is that it was really a living, breathing thing, and we were getting new pages sometimes the night before. And in order to tap into it and try to honor the material in the way that we felt was necessary, I remember, like, when we were sitting there with pens trying to be like, "Okay, here's this beat, and then, but that doesn't make sense because of what happened in episode two, but what if I tried it this way?

And I know it says this, but what if the subtext is this?" And she was a really excellent kind of teammate in terms of trying to mine this for all it's worth. And I, I think, I, I hope to, to, to God and to Ryan Murphy that that, that work is demonstrated.  

KAIA GERBER: One and the same.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah, one and... I hope to God- ... dash Ryan Murphy-

KAIA GERBER: Comma

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: that ... that, that is, is demonstrated in the, in the final product.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I'm wondering, can we reverse course here?

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Of course.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Is there any praise that you can, uh, give to one Kaia Gerber? Uh, we'll have her cover her ears.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah, Ka- Kaia is the hardest working person m- m- maybe I've ever met, at least one of truly the hardest working people I've ever met of anything that she applies herself to, and I think that her want to...

I can already tell she's freaking out, but you-  

KAIA GERBER: I'm freaking out ...

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: to, yeah

KAIA GERBER: I'm shaking.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: To make, to make the absolute most, you did not wanna miss a single moment that there was an opportunity to, to squeeze the juice out of this material, which I think is the tell of a really excellent actor, and I think you see it in the work.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Hm. 

KAIA GERBER: Thank you, Graham.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah.

KAIA GERBER: I wanna just, I wanna call out one scene because maybe in watching it, like, you wouldn't know the sort of what went into it, but I think there's a scene at Robert's party where Tom and Susan, Tom asks Susan to dance even though they've had a little bit of a fight earlier. And as scripted, it was just a very simple scene, and then, you know, the character of Tom at the end sort of makes a joke out of it.

CLIP: Remember the first time we danced?  

Of course. You remember how drunk we got?

KAIA GERBER: Graham and I had talked a lot about this scene, but when we actually got there, we decided, I was the, we were kind of like, "Let's just not look at each other for this. Let's just dance, and do it not looking at each other." 'Cause so oftentimes I think as humans, we are saying something, but we're feeling or thinking another.

And so to do that scene where we're not looking at each other, it really freed us up to have all the emotions that we had, and it ended up being this really, I think, poignant scene, and one of my favorite scenes, um, in, in the whole show.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Well, I'm glad you bring that up, because I was going to ask about favorite scenes.

So I love that you mentioned that one. Graham, do you have a favorite scene?  

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Favorite scenes with Kaia is definitely the slow dance in Robert's party.

KAIA GERBER: It wasn't when I rode you like a horse?

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: That was interesting, too. I remember it being very dusty, very muddy, and very sweaty.

KAIA GERBER: And so hot.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: So that wasn't, like, necessarily my favorite scene.

KAIA GERBER: So, so sweaty.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: I remember it being very- But it was- ... very warm.

KAIA GERBER: Very warm.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah. But it was, it was good fun. And I think if you zoom in, you can see just so much sweat on me, so. Well,

KAIA GERBER: we'll do a beauty pass on that.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: When I spoke to Kaia in episode one, we talked about favorite days on set.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: And I wanna ask you, Graham, do you have a favorite day on set of The Shards?

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: I have many favorite days for different reasons. I think the most aesthetically pleasing day was when we were shooting the aerial shots of us driving down the PCH in that convertible, 'cause there wasn't a cloud in the sky, and we shot pretty much from sunup to sundown, and we were blasting music, and we got to do most of the driving ourselves.

So that was the first time that I was like, "Oh, yeah, Hollywood." Like, I was like, "This is what it's always gonna be like." You just feel so cool and so attractive, and you get to do all this stuff. So that was a really great day. Um-  

KAIA GERBER: Except for the fact that I had to scream Vienna by Ultravox in Graham's ear,

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: which- Which did ultimately get cut from the show - 

KAIA GERBER: ultimately didn't make it in the show. And I don't know why.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: But I thought it was great. I thought it was great. And maybe there'll be, like, a, a gag reel of all of our scenes.

KAIA GERBER: I was like, I was like, "Graham, please sing with me," and he's like, "No, no, Tom wouldn't be singing right now." And I was like, "Oh, that's-"

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: yeah.

KAIA GERBER: Nice, nice one.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: You can always blame it on the character. I don't think Tom would, I don't think Tom would do that. 

KAIA GERBER: Tom would not sing.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: When in doubt,

KAIA GERBER: was like, "Oh."

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Just blame the character.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah, yeah.

KAIA GERBER: Nice.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Uh, well, thank you both so much. This has been a real thrill.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Thank you.

KAIA GERBER: Thanks, Evan.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I look forward to, like the rest of the audience, finding out how this is going to end, dot dot dot.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Dot dot dot. 

KAIA GERBER: Dot dot dot. And then maybe eventually we'll find out who the trawler is.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Maybe so.

GRAHAM CAMPBELL: Yeah. Won't be today. I, I have my theories. I think it's Evan Ross Katz.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: You think it's me? Yeah. Yeah. That's why I wanted to do this podcast- Yeah ... so that I could be the big reveal at the end. Yeah. But we'll save that for episode nine.

That's all for this time. Next week, I'll be joined by production designer Cat Smith to talk about pools, props, and of course, Hamburger Hamlet. Be sure to rate, review, and follow The Shards official podcast. You can check it out on Hulu or wherever you get your podcasts. And watch new episodes of The Shards on FX and Hulu. 

m Evan Ross Katz, and I'll see you next time.