Episode 7 | The Shards Official Audio Podcast

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Welcome back to The Shard's official podcast. I'm Evan Ross Katz, podcaster and pop culture provocateur. Joining me today is none other than Brett and Debbie, Igby Rigney and Hayes Warner.

Igby, Hayes, I'm so excited to have you both here to chat. Welcome.  

HAYES WARNER: So excited to be here.  

IGBY RIGNEY: Thank you. Thank you for having us.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: So I do wanna start with Hayes because this is your acting debut, which is so surprising to learn when watching this. You would never know.

HAYES WARNER: Thank you.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: It's an absolutely stunning one. Can you tell me about how this project first came onto your radar?

HAYES WARNER: Yes. It was a crazy whirlwind. This was my first professional acting gig, and it... W- what a, you know, dream come true. I was a big fan of Bret Easton Ellis' work, um, and also grew up on Ryan Murphy shows, and I heard that the two worlds were colliding. Um, and I remember I was in, like, central Pennsylvania, like, touring music, and I reached out to my, I think, music agent, and I just was like, "Is there any way you can get me an audition for Debbie Schaefer?

I know that book, and I wanna be Debbie Schaefer." So it was even a celebration to get that audition, and that led to, like, a six-month whirlwind of callbacks, and it was just ups and downs, thinking I got it, thinking I didn't. Begging for it, you know, burning sage. Um, but yeah, here we are. Can't believe it. 

IGBY RIGNEY: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Wow.

IGBY RIGNEY: And she's fantastic-

HAYES WARNER: Oh, Igby ...

IGBY RIGNEY: in the show.

HAYES WARNER: No.

IGBY RIGNEY: She- like, out of this world. Day one, I was like, "Oh my gosh." We, we had that thing around the, uh-  

HAYES WARNER: No ...  

IGBY RIGNEY: the table.

HAYES WARNER: When I com- when I compliment, I start to sweat..

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Igby, it's my understanding that this is your first time being number one on the call sheet.

You've been acting for some time. Um, but talk to me about sort of taking on this role and, and, and the grandeur of it.  

IGBY RIGNEY: I'm so incredibly grateful and humbled to be number one in a cast of so many talented people. It... I'm not sure that I've processed it yet, but I, I hope that I was able to, you know, show up and, and set a good tone.

And, and, you know, I, I care so much about this cast and this production, and my, my main goal was to just make sure that everybody knew that, and, and yeah.  

HAYES WARNER: I, I don't mean to jump in on, in your question, but Igby truly what, had so much on his plate and had so much to do, but was so focused on making sure we were all okay, um, and was, like, truly just set the tone of such a supportive environment.

Um, I, uh, sometimes I'd look to my left, and, like, there'd be a Diet Coke there. Like, you know what I mean? He just was so giving to the cast and, and just made it such an incredible energy and environment to be part of, so.  

IGBY RIGNEY: Well, that's, yeah.

HAYES WARNER: There you go.

IGBY RIGNEY: I appreciate that. Thank you.

HAYES WARNER: And that's how I feel.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: So we've got to talk about this relationship between Brett and Debbie because it is, it's a little messy.

Let's admit. When we start the series, the two have already been together for a minute. How would you describe their relationship at the start of the show?  

HAYES WARNER: I think, honestly, when the show starts, Debbie is entering that teenage early love feeling that is less centered around who am I with, who's my partner, and is this the right person for me, and more centered around the excitement that someone wants to label a relationship with you.

And so I think she's just excited to finally be in a relationship.  

IGBY RIGNEY: I think from the character of Brett's perspective, Debbie is definitely one of his close, close friends and somebody that provides a layer of protection and safety for him as he's exploring his sexuality and, and coming to grips with the fact that he is othered in this environment of 1981.

And I know that he cares deeply about Debbie and wants to be close with her, and I think the relationship grows out of that element of it, e- even though ultimately he knows that it's not a sustainable- thing for them.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Right. Things definitely seem to have shifted between the two of them, and my interpretation is that that could have been both Debbie having more of an understanding of Brett and sort of his wandering eye, if you will, but also the fact that Brett himself is going through quite a lot.

How do you both see, like, the shift in their dynamic?  

IGBY RIGNEY: I think the, the big shift in the dynamic really does come from the entrance of Robert, and Debbie and the whole friend group really not understanding why the obsession is there. And, and at least in my interpretation, yes, there's, uh, obviously, Robert is an incredibly magnetic and, and handsome young man who is toying with Brett.

But on the other hand, there is this undercurrent of darkness that Brett has gotten a peek of. Brett finds that so important and so dangerous that everything else kind of takes a, a backseat, including the relationship with Debbie, and I don't think it's an intentional shift on his part.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Well, Hayes, I'm curious.

From your perspective as Debbie, do you think that she's catching on to everything that Ig- Igby is describing about Brett's journey?  

HAYES WARNER: I think that Debbie is so aware of social dynamics and how she's perceived, and I think some people could call that superficial, but I really think it's, like, a survival mechanism for Debbie.

And the prospect of Brett is normalcy and stability and, you know, socially popular, and I think that she is realizing that he is not going to be that for her. And so this image of perfection is slowly slipping away, and she's heartbroken over that, and trying to hold onto that is really difficult for her. 

And I also think that she's much smarter than she gives off to her friend group, and I think that she's aware something's happening, but she is trying to figure out what that thing is. I think she's just realizing that it's not what she wants it to be and kind of blaming herself.  

IGBY RIGNEY: It's really interesting, too, as the, the parallels between Terry and Liz's relationship-

HAYES WARNER: Yeah.

IGBY RIGNEY: become immediately evident between Brett and Debbie, and that, that's such a, you know, we... Debbie at least has a good look into what that future could possibly look like. And I guess so does Brett, too, as he starts to spend time with Terry and, and maybe has a fantasy of, "Oh, well, Terry's getting away with it, and perhaps I can get away with that with Debbie as well."

HAYES WARNER: Mm-hmm.

IGBY RIGNEY: So.

HAYES WARNER: Like Liz says in, like, episode two, "You are me," and you realize that's, like, one of her biggest fears, but that really is, you know, kind of unfolding.

CLIP: If you keep this up, you're not going to be very happy. 

Cause then I'll end up like you?

Look in the mirror.

You are me.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I wanna hear about working with Ryan specifically, because I know that Ryan really has this knack for discovering talent, and I imagine how exciting it must feel to be on the receiving end of that, to know that Ryan sees something in both of you. Can you talk about the early conversations that you both had with Ryan, perhaps about the script, perhaps on set?

IGBY RIGNEY: Getting to work with Ryan was such a huge, huge gift, because the show really lives in his head, and having direct access to that information and him being able to, to... Even if it's a minute detail, he, he just gives such specific notes that immediately inform everything that is coming next, and it, it's such a, such a fun and wonderful experience to work with him.

HAYES WARNER: I mean, I second all of that. One thing that comes to mind was just the environment that he created, um, where we were working and how comfortable he made it for us to feel like we could play, and, and that he had answers, but he wanted to hear our answers as well, and to explore and, and finding these characters together.

Like, it just really felt like a family, and, um, I always felt excited to explore and try things. I never felt judged, um, but always felt like I could go to him, too, and, and get his take.  

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Mm. Do you all remember your first day on set?

HAYES WARNER: Oh, my God.

IGBY RIGNEY: Yes.

HAYES WARNER: We were just talking about it.

IGBY RIGNEY: Yeah.

HAYES WARNER: It's burned in my mind. I mean, and it was a life-changing opportunity, and it was six months of these ups and downs, thinking I got it, writing letters, like, ple- you know?

Like, I just wanted it so bad, so that moment on set, you walk into, like... We filmed at a college, and I just, my heart was racing, and I wanted to do everything perfectly and right, and had never been on a set environment before. But the second we all sat down together, I felt like there was a lot of pressure with pre-production, like how do I prepare best for this role, not realizing that the real prep was us spending so much time together. 

Like, we actually became... It almost felt meta, 'cause we're living in these- Hills that, you know, the book is based off of becoming friends. And we sit down together to have, like, a lunch, and it felt like I was having lunch with my friends, and we're cracking jokes, and Ryan is allowing us to improv, and it just felt so settled and good. 

That was, the first day was crazy.  

IGBY RIGNEY: Yeah.

HAYES WARNER: It was crazy.

IGBY RIGNEY: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Was there a particular costume or set piece that helped you both kind of better find or understand the character?

HAYES WARNER: I mean, the costumes were just incredible. I really think, there was these printed boards that, like, during pre-production, you know, I had, like, long hair, and I was trying to figure out, who is Debbie?

We went through so many iterations. There was, like, very, very preppy, this, that. We started getting more influenced by Debbie Harry and, and that more rocker, edgy side, and I remember putting on that pink jumpsuit that we wore in Debbie's party, that pink, when I do my strut.  

IGBY RIGNEY: Yeah, yeah.

HAYES WARNER: You remember my strut.

IGBY RIGNEY: Uh-huh.

HAYES WARNER: Um, and also the blue dress with the, that I wore for episode five.

IGBY RIGNEY: Mm-hmm.

HAYES WARNER: With the cross. We wore a lot.  

IGBY RIGNEY: Yeah, you wore that a lot.

HAYES WARNER: We wore that many, many days. But I loved that one because it was, you know, s- so inspired by, you know, '80s rock fashion and, and just the beautiful blue color. I loved everyone's color.

I loved that episode. Um, so I'd say the blue dress.  

IGBY RIGNEY: One of the elements of the book that I really, really loved was how specific Brett as an author was. Having such a, a deep and specific, uh, breadth of material to pull from for the costumes and the music and, and, you know, obviously we're inspired by the book, but having s- having such a great source material just lent itself to having so many wonderful costumes and, and very specific looks for all of the characters. 

But I, I love the, uh, I love what I wore to the video bar.  

HAYES WARNER: Yeah.

IGBY RIGNEY: It was the bomber jacket. Um-

HAYES WARNER: I liked that bomber jacket.

IGBY RIGNEY: Yeah. I, I, I also appreciated how Brett's style shifts throughout the show, um, influenced by Terry Schaefer and Robert, I, I think, as well. Um, so yeah, it was such a, a, a wonderful, dynamic place to play.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Did you two have a favorite scene to shoot together? You guys have quite a bit of scenes together, quite a bit of screen time. Is there a favorite?

IGBY RIGNEY: I really love the scene that we have at Robert's party uh, by the fire pit. It's not a happy scene. Um, but I think it was so emblematic of what was going on in our relationship between Brett and Debbie and, and just that, that missed connection and, and, you know, really r- like we're both reaching, and we're both trying, and it, and it just, like, slips, you know, it, it slips by a little bit, and I- Yeah, with the book

I thought it was really beautiful. Yeah, with the book.  

CLIP: I know how much you like books. It's a first edition. 

This came out last month. They're all first editions.  

HAYES WARNER: That for sure, for me, um, felt like a really pivotal moment for Debbie. I also think filming episode one, when I'm in my bedroom, and you've just come up from the pool party.

I was just thinking about this. And I'm sitting on my bed. 

Um, and I'm trying so hard to look perfect for him. I, there was a shot when I don't know if it's used, where I'm like airing my armpits and like- Yeah ... trying to like look good for you. And you come in, and I remember Ryan was directing, and he really unlocked what you said before, um, for us. 

Like, why are they together? Like, I just was always like, "Why, why does Debbie stay with him?" And I think that there's a friendship there, and I remember you were taking off your shirt. Yeah. And I was like, "Ooh." And I just like, our actual friendship kinda seeped into the characters, and it made sense to me more why they were together and why Debbie put up with what she did, and I, I think that scene like unlocked that for us. 

IGBY RIGNEY: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I wanna conclude by asking you both to kind of tease what's ahead. There are two more episodes left. Obviously, no spoilers, but is there anything you can tell us both about what's ahead specifically for Debbie and Brett in these, in these two remaining episodes?

HAYES WARNER: So the killer is... No.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah. Let us know, please.

HAYES WARNER: Just kidding. I don't know at all.

IGBY RIGNEY: The best thing that I can say is that a lot of the questions that we've had today about their relationship is, are, are questions that the characters are asking themselves.

HAYES WARNER: Yeah.

IGBY RIGNEY: And I think some of those questions come to light in the next two episodes.

HAYES WARNER: I think Debbie really, I think she's been really heartbroken and struggling, and I think that there's going to be a transition with her power and how she views her power, and how she deals with it.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Well, thank you both so much. Uh, once again, this has been a pleasure.

HAYES WARNER: You're the best. Thank you for having us.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah, my pleasure.

That's all for The Shards Official Podcast. Be sure to rate, review, and follow, and watch the final episode of The Shards next week on FX and Hulu.