Observation - Episode 4 | Alien: Earth - The Official Podcast

Nibs (Played by Lily Newmark): I said “No!”

Dame Sylvia (Played by Essie Davis): Okay…

Nibs (Played by Lily Newmark): It’s a girl, I think. Clarissa.

Dame Sylvia (Played by Essie Davis): Nibs…

Nibs (Played by Lily Newmark): That’s her name. What she wants to be called.

Adam Rogers: Welcome to Alien: Earth - The Official Podcast. I'm your host, Adam Rogers rowing into every episode of the show, like an Eye Midge interweaving squiggly tentacles into its pulsing frontal cortex. This week, episode four, observation. As usual, we're chockfull of spoilers, so watch the episode before listening.

We are at the halfway mark, halfway to the end of the season, and there's still a lot to talk about. We'll start today with director Ugla Hauksdóttir to talk about how the Hybrids, especially Wendy, are feeling, and about how the eternal Alien theme of motherhood plays out on Alien: Earth. Also, the sheep. Then we have visual effects supervisor Jonathan Rothbart to talk about our expanding cast of monsters. We'll dive deep with Lily Newmark and Adarsh Gourav, the actors who play Nibs and Slightly respectively, to talk about how their characters are coping with their, let's say, changing circumstances. And finally, Sydney Chandler, who plays Wendy, is back to answer this episode's big question: body or soul, what makes a person who they are?

But before all that, let's recap because something is rotten on the island of Neverland and Ugla Hauksdóttir is here to help us unravel some of exactly what.

Ugla Hauksdottir: Noah talked a lot about the horror element, the feeling of dread being very important to the show, and creating a strong atmosphere and the visual storytelling obviously being a huge part of that. But obviously we have a lot of really juicy characters on the show. For example, during the tone meeting, we went through the characters in detail and talked about their motivations and their arcs. I think it's an interesting question, like who was good, who was bad? And it becomes a running question throughout the show, but how that changes also. And I think it was important for him to everything feeling motivated, and for all characters, no matter what their mission was, that they all felt three dimensional.

Adam Rogers: Well, let me ask about one of the weirdest characters first, because it plays such a big role in episode four, which is the Eye Midge, and the sheep that it takes over. In very Noah Hawley-style, it's absurdist humor and also super creepy. How did you think about the scenes with the sinister sheep?

Ugla Hauksdottir: That was a real challenge to be honest, because of course in directing a scene like that you need to have a lot of imagination because what you are filming is actually not necessarily happening in front of your eyes. The Eye Midge had already been designed when I came on board, and other than that, we basically had to rely on our imagination to know that the scene was there. But what we did have on set was, sort of an Eye Midge reference, a little kind of cute, funny looking eyeball on a stick figure.

Adam Rogers: An action figure. A little eyeball, Eye Midge action figure.

Ugla Hauksdottir: Yeah, kind of. And it was really fun to touch it. It was, like, a little bit slimy and essentially it was quite cute. And so it's funny to then see it attack the sheep and it turning into the horror that it does. And the same thing goes for the sheep. We had three versions of a sheep. We had Victoria, the most beautiful sheep I've ever seen, a real live sheep.

Adam Rogers: Aww, that's awesome.

Ugla Hauksdottir: The diva on set. So we were able to use her for some of our shots. We then had an animatronics sheep that was very limited in movement, but it looked kind of creepy, and it was able to cock its head and chew a little and it could blink its eyes. But then there's the third version of the sheep that we obviously didn't have on the day, which is the CGI sheep. And so with these all elements, we had to be really thorough with our shot-listing and planning. It's a complex sequence. So it was storyboarded, and thankfully, it all came together and I think it looks pretty amazing.

Adam Rogers: This is also an episode where Wendy realizes that she can talk to the Xenomorph alien. And there are these interactions where Wendy is petting it, like, treats a Chestburster like a cuddly friend. You have this challenge of the alien–in all the other alien stories, those things are, like, if you're near one, you're about to die. That's the whole thing about them. And so this is a very different kind of scene. The relationship between a Hybrid and the alien has totally changed. So how do you think about that? You now have a very different relationship with the thing that has been the monster and all of these other stories and in this plot so far, what changes when you're directing that?

Ugla Hauksdottir: I think in a way it's nice to think about Wendy and her relationship to the Chestburster, and how that develops as a love story almost. But I think we begin to sense, at the end of the episode, is that there's a loneliness inside of Wendy, and there's a growing feeling that she does not somehow belong at the facility. And of course, Boy K, he uses the fact that she can hear the alien sound to sort of manipulate her. And he says, “I'll let you keep your brother. I'll let your brother stay here at the facility if you listen to the creatures and tell me what they're trying to say.” So that also becomes obviously a motivation for her to learn this language and find a way to communicate and understand what the creature is saying. But I think that what's really quite special about that final scene of the episode is that we sense that loneliness and this sort of connection that she seems to desire towards this little creature. And this is a storyline that obviously will progress, in terms of how Wendy begins to realize that maybe her and this alien creature are not that different.

Adam Rogers: And in this episode, Wendy's continuing to mature. She's starting to figure out what new capabilities the new body has, but she embraces that newness, the kind of hyper empowerment of it in really different ways than, like, Nibs or Slightly, right?

Ugla Hauksdottir: Yeah, she knows that she is special and I think that's something that's been fed to her since she's arrived at Neverland. Obviously she's the first one and she, you know, has this responsibility to be sort of a big sister to the other ones and a role model in some way. And I think that she takes that very seriously. But also, when she begins to hear the aliens, she feels like she's been chosen by them somehow. Because as we discover, the other Hybrids don't hear the aliens speaking, so that makes her even more special.

Adam Rogers: Right, she says they picked me.

Ugla Hauksdottir: Yes.

Adam Rogers: For Hermit her brother, as he's observing all her new powers, he's starting to have doubts about whether she's actually his sister or something different, right? So when Atom Eins asks Hermit if he believes Wendy is indeed his sister, Hermit has a really strong emotional reaction. He refuses to respond. So what's going on for Hermit there? How did you approach that?

Ugla Hauksdottir: I think for Hermit, he's afraid to answer that question because by saying, “No, that can't be her,” it means that his hope of her survival is basically gone, and it means that she is in fact dead. And so there is emotional burden for him to that, and obviously he wants her to be real, but he's also afraid of what that means, especially given the fact that she's now owned by this facility. And so that brings up a whole bunch of questions that I don't think he yet knows quite how to, um, I don't even know if…yeah, how much he's even processing at that point. It's a freaky day for Hermit, that's for sure.

Adam Rogers: There's also these scenes with his former strike team, the other military folks. And they're–they're sort of rare on the show 'cause they're–it's scenes where there are only humans, baseline humans, you know, without any modifications. So does that change how you direct them?

Ugla Hauksdottir: I think it just comes on its own in a way, because when you have those three interacting, there's friendship there, there's history there, and just a nice comfortable atmosphere. I think it stands out especially because they are in this very big, cold space. And we lit it warm to give it that different feel from some of the other scenes that feel colder.

Adam Rogers: That's cool. Just like in the mechanics of how you make the scenes feel the way you want me to feel when I'm watching them, it's cool that it was even lit differently to convey that warmth.

Ugla Hauksdottir: I think it's the sort of the closest to real family we get, not somebody in a different looking body, you know? This is familiar and everything else in the episode, in the world of Neverland, feels new and foreign and scary and dark in some way. So yeah, I think that's the reason for why that scene maybe sticks out.

Adam Rogers: Alien stories, in the movies and elsewhere, especially on the show, often deal a lot with parenthood and motherhood, especially. And there's a dynamic in Episode Four when Dame Sylvia, Arthur, to a certain extent, start thinking about their parental role with the Hybrids and get told not to, basically by Boy Kavalier. At the same time as Nibs announces that she's pregnant and gets a birds and the bees talk. Why do you think in the context of this show, motherhood, parenting generally becomes such an important theme?

Ugla Hauksdottir: If we're speaking about motherhood, both in the case of Nibs and Dame Sylvia, I think it's very much a defense mechanism to what's happening, and maybe for Sylvia, what she's done. I mean, that conversation between her and Arthur, where we see that Arthur is starting to ask all these questions about, morally, are we doing the right thing? He says something like–do you have the quote? It's such good line.

Adam Rogers: Yeah, I do actually. “Worst case is we killed a bunch of kids.”

Ugla Hauksdottir: Yeah. “Worst case we killed a bunch of kids.” Exactly. And so I think that for Dame Sylvia, this sort of becomes her own defense mechanism, somehow by being a mother, she can provide them the love and the support they need that somehow, by being the best mother she can be, everything will be fine. But I think she's very much living in disillusion. And the same goes for Nibs. Nibs is somebody who's traumatized from her experience at the crash site, by the things that she's seen. And she is, essentially, a small child that's been thrust into a very grownup world that she's in a way ready for. And she's also trying to accept the fact that she has this synthetic body, and creating life is obviously quite the opposite of the idea of a synthetic body. And so that in some way becomes, I think, a way for her to regain some control over herself, some sort of autonomy. But also it's, perhaps, a big cry for, you know, love and to be cared for. It's psychologically astute, quite powerful, and very sad, to be honest.

Adam Rogers: It's a fascinating idea that she tries to find her autonomy and personhood in whatever the new biology is. That she's trying to figure out, “How do I have full ownership over this new body?” And pretty different than the ways that, like, Morrow is expressing his autonomy, right? In this episode, he gets to interact with Slightly as a kid and he misses his own kid, but he's also got his own ends. So how do you think about that character compared to all these folks who are trying to deal with these issues of autonomy and biology and parenting and their relations with each other? And then into the middle of that, Morrow gets thrust with his own mission?

Ugla Hauksdottir: Yeah. You know, that's one way to read it, is that he almost becomes a bit of a father figure to Slightly in some way. And he sort of uses his position to manipulate Slightly, and in that long conversation they have, when Slightly sitting at the mossy rock, he's complimenting Slightly like, “Good boy. Yeah, you've done a good job.” And Slightly, who is this very innocent kid, but is sort of emotionally, in a way, neglected at the Neverland facility, as I guess all the Hybrids are, except maybe Wendy. So I think that's how Morrow also manages to manipulate Slightly to do what he wants him to do. I think for Morrow, that is something for the greater good, in a way. Like he has a very clear mission, and he will accomplish that no matter the price of it. At the end of that conversation, he literally says to Slightly, “Get some person in front of that egg.” And we all know what that means. That egg is going to hatch, and that is–Face Hugger is gonna come out and do some terrible damage. So he's a proper villain. And Babou, he's a fantastic actor. He is such a warm person, always smiling. But then he's able to turn on this sort of ice cold. And so what we played a bit with is fluctuating between those two. And what's cool is that because Slightly and Morrow are never in the same space, his voice can sound warm and comforting, but then we cut to Morrow's face, we can see the darkness that lies behind.

Adam Rogers: They were on set delivering those lines to each other, right? Even though you couldn't see them. Is that right?

Ugla Hauksdottir: Yeah. They were not in the same space. They were separate, but, yeah, they were there for each other. Let's say that Adarsh was on camera, I could give notes to Babou to change his performance, which then obviously Adarsh would react to and vice versa. So, yeah, I think that was definitely the way to go.

Adam Rogers: I know it was a really vibrant set from what I've been hearing. Were there any particularly memorable moments from making it that stand out for you?

Ugla Hauksdottir: We were close to the end of me filming my episodes when Dana Gonzalez, who was my go-to person, basically said like, “Hey, we want you to have a bit of fun. So if you have any crazy cool ideas you know, the sets are there, just go for it.” And I was just like, “What? Are they actually saying this to me?” This is, like, the greatest gift. And I basically said to the actors, “Hey, I have this idea.” And one of them was that Kirsh would go and dance with the orchids. Now I don't know if this actually made the cut, but um that was really freeing, very surprising, very refreshing. On a TV schedule where we're always fighting against the clock, just to allow yourself to be in that creative space and being playful, that's something that I really value about, Noah. I think that's when you get the most out of people is by trusting them and allowing them to take ownership in the work.

Adam Rogers: Ugla obviously put a lot of time and thought and effort into how the characters and situations are best conveyed to us in the audience, but there's some things that have to happen after primary shooting wraps. Once the cameras are packed up, the sets and costumes are stowed away in storage, there's a whole other kind of magic. Somebody's gotta make that Eye Midge look as tentacley as possible. So let's talk to Jonathan Rothbart, head of VFX, to talk about everything from the monsters to the spaceships. And he knows his sci-fi…

Jonathan Rothbart: I saw the original Alien in the theaters in ‘79, just to date myself a little bit. And for me, it was just a totally different experience, 'cause before that I had seen 2001 and I had seen Star Wars, and what's so cool, you know, you watch a film like Aliens, aside from the fact that it was scary as shit–

Adam Rogers: Right.

Jonathan Rothbart: –you know. The truth is you don't see that much of space at the end of the day. You really don't. It's really all in the confines of a ships without windows, which–it felt right in a lot of ways. It was how I think, as a kid, I would've visualized the sci-fi future of space travel. So it really resonated with me in that way. And definitely was a driving force of what became my creative endeavors, going into my career, which I didn't realize at the time it was gonna be doing.

Adam Rogers: But let me ask though, that does also bring some baggage with it. People know what things are supposed to look like. But I have to think you want to give them something new also. So how do you do that? What do you do?

Jonathan Rothbart: I think that what Noah did in writing this was he gave us a new take on the Alien universe. As the name says, it's on Earth, so it's a visualization of what is Earth like during this time period? And then, in addition to that, he created some really cool new creatures that I think are both unique and different, but also totally fit into this universe. All that felt seamless, but also new and different. And spaceships and monsters excite me like crazy. It's some of my favorite stuff to do. So I was just really excited about the opportunity to really play in that sandbox.

Adam Rogers: Well, let's get into that sandbox a little bit. We've been briefly introduced to the flies and the orchid, which I'm sure we're gonna be seeing a lot more of in future episodes. But so far we've spent the most time with the Ticks and the Eye Midge, right? So let's talk about those. And let's start with the Ticks.

Jonathan Rothbart: Interestingly, this one was the one that took us the longest to design. Because of just the nature of what it is. And–and the idea is they go in and suck out your blood and it fills up into this huge sack that they carry around, and they use that to breed other Ticks, which, similar to how the Xenos use, you know, and the Face Huggers, they're all just about breeding, right? Noah has always said “disgusting is the name of the game.”

Adam Rogers: Yeah, they're horrible.

Jonathan Rothbart: Yeah, I mean they're really gross. And we, you know, we talked about having, blood trails as they’re excreting blood outta their sacks. And we tried to make sure their sacks had these kind of pustules on 'em, and just— we were just trying to make 'em as disgusting as possible. Meanwhile, what they're doing is also just nasty. You know, we have Ticks in our world and they're kind of gross.

Adam Rogers: Yeah, no, that's— I'm not happy that there are real ones of those either.

Jonathan Rothbart: So just upping that ante and making it more disgusting and making it a Tick for a human as opposed for a smaller animal is just terrifying.

Adam Rogers: Yeah, very gross. Um, but there's a — but there's a new creature I'm really curious about. That's the — the Eye Midge. When I — 'cause when I saw it, I thought, “Oh, eyeball squid!”

Jonathan Rothbart: I'll have to say the Eye Midge is my favorite creature.

Adam Rogers: The breakout character of the show.

Jonathan Rothbart: It really is, you know? What we wanted to do with that creature, we sort of played with this idea that while all the other creatures are more about propagating their species and the things they do are very much just, they kill, they eat. The Eye Midge is different. I like to call him the agent of chaos, where he's just out there to mess it up a little bit. And he'll go in there and he observes. I love the way that we're playing him where he's very quiet and very interested in everything that's going around him. And you can tell that he's just thinking why he's there. And then when he gets the chance, he's just a violent little creature. Just violent, you know? We first get a hint of him in Episode Two, but in four is when we do the sheep attack, and that's where you really get to see how violent he can be and what he can do, which is fun.

Adam Rogers: So yeah, just to be clear, he displaces the eyeball of the thing that he's taking over, and presumably his little squeegee tentacles, like, wrap around the brain or something. It's a horrible–it's not great.

Jonathan Rothbart: Yeah. And he just–and to get in there, he has to rip the eye socket out and squeeze his way in there. The other part we did was when he's in captivity, we also tried to play him up as a little bit cute. There's this one little shot where they're carting him in, but what we did just for fun is we kind of put his tentacles up at the glass, like he's on a ride in Disneyland or something like that, and he is being taken there. We're just like, it's small and light. Yeah. It's just kind of fun, you know.

Adam Rogers: You mentioned an ecological distinction between the Eye Midge and the Ticks. I'm just wondering how much I should care about biology here. Does the life cycle matter or do they just have to be scary monsters?

Jonathan Rothbart: I always try and think about why this creature does what it does. I need to know why it's choosing this choices it's making. I try to treat it in a directorial way, because in doing that, it can help inform me on how I want to have him animated to act in the scene. For the Tick, if it's going for the jugular, are we having it sniff around as if it can sense, pheromones or blood or what is it that it–it's searching for as it's trying to find its inserts spot and, you know, 'cause it's gonna do it to different creatures.

Adam Rogers: So okay, there's like a rough cut of an episode and the script is saying what the action is and, like, what do you get and what do you then have to do?

Jonathan Rothbart: We have the art department original design that we work from, and we augment from there. And we work with Noah on the design. And then you always want as much in camera as possible, even if you're not gonna use it because it gives you so much information and gives the actor something to act around and gives the DP something to light around and gives the director something to direct around. So it's a huge part of the process. Uh, when it comes to the Xeno, we always filmed with the guy in the suit in it so A, we would have those choices, but B also for lighting and everything else to keep it as real feeling as possible. If you're seeing his feet or his legs, it's a guy standing there, which is not the same as what our Xeno feet and legs look like, so we have to augment it by changing those up. Or in certain cases it just makes more sense to have a totally CG Xeno, just because of the motion and the action that he is doing, just no person can actually do it. But that being said, it's a funny process and sometimes that works perfectly with the action, and sometimes it doesn't exactly fit. So then we start to do visual effects-y things. We rebuild plates or we steal half of the plate from one shot and half the plate from another shot and we mix and match and we start to try and build a sequence together to get the action that Noah was hoping to see in his final visualization.

Adam Rogers: So how do you make it scary? How do you make it so that you're making somebody feel something when they're watching it?

Jonathan Rothbart: I subscribe to the whole Hitchcock theory of suspense, right? You know, it's just like, just bleed it out and bleed it out and bleed it out and you think it's gonna happen, and then you just hold onto it a little longer and maybe they aren't gonna make it, it's gonna be fine. And then no.

Adam Rogers: Not a spoiler. Not everybody's gonna make it.

Jonathan Rothbart: Yeah. To me that's the trick is just when to give it away. When to give that moment, and then in that moment, making it visceral enough to where if somebody watches that they can be like, “Oh, I don't want that to happen.” You know? That's what's fun about some of these other creatures, is that you don't necessarily know what it is they do yet, and so the suspense still lives there.

Adam Rogers: So as we wait in suspense to see what else the creepy crawlies could possibly be getting up to in coming episodes, there's one character who has a particularly difficult time after encountering the host of new aliens. In this episode, Nibs reveals that she believes she's pregnant. So who better to tell us about how Nibs is coping–or not coping–than the actor who plays her, Lily Newmark?

Lily Newmark: She certainly goes through the strongest existential crisis out of all of them. She is not enjoying this as much as the others, if at all. I think the only part she enjoys is having new friends, but for the most part, it's deeply traumatic for her.

Adam Rogers: Why is that? Is there something different about what her childhood was before that, or did you think about that?

Lily Newmark: Yeah. I touched on this briefly with Noah when we first met because it was, you know, mentioned in one of the scripts I was given that she had trauma in her previous life and so they had to be careful with what they put her through because it could trigger that.

Adam Rogers: So that's really interesting because she gets attacked by an Eye Midge in Episode Two and has what to a viewer looks pretty clearly like a traumatic stress response to it. It's so interesting to me because across the Alien movies, you see all these people get attacked, but, like, people are like, “Oh, I got attacked by an alien, but now let's go fight some more.” But Nibs is different because Nibs has this, what seems like PTSD. It seems like a much more human response. Like, I would freak out if I got attacked by an eyeball tentacle monster, right? Like, that's normal.

Lily Newmark: I did wonder and I spoke to Ugla who is the director of Episode Four, about the possibility of Nibs to have experienced physical abuse and for that to be playing out now, because this new trauma has triggered that previous trauma. I don't think it's so far-fetched to think that, and we did come to that vague conclusion together, but also, I'm not the writer, so I didn't wanna speak for Noah. But because it was such a strong response, and pregnancy–what that has meant in the past within the Alien franchise has, you know, signaled towards rape. It's not so far-fetched–it's incredibly bleak to consider, but we had to get there somehow. We had to find a reasonable reason for–for that very big response to the Eye Midge attack.

Adam Rogers: What becomes, in episode four, a quite strange relationship with Dame Sylvia, who's the kinda maternal figure, right? To the point where Nibs tells her that she's pregnant, which would be impossible for Nibs, and what's going on there that that happens?

Lily Newmark: Well, I think she's using fantasy as a coping mechanism. As a form of escapism, which is obviously incredibly normal for a child to do. Deep down she knows it's not true. It's a trauma response. The power of the mind is really incredible, and what's not entirely certain is whether the power of her mind, like with Wendy–Wendy's capable of more things than the adult makers were aware of. And they don't know that maybe, perhaps, the power of her mind can alter her physical capabilities. And I mean, all of their powers are unprecedented. They're all part of this experiment.

Adam Rogers: Oh, so the, like, the scientists are open to the possibility that something weird might be going on here?

Lily Newmark: Something might be. It might be to, to do with, like, that part of her circuit is, you know, around the abdomen might, there might be something going on there. Of course it is, you know, impossible for her to be pregnant because she's not human physically. But the power of her mind might be, you know, creating some kind of energy in that area. But I guess the point of the pregnancy is for Nibs to establish control over the situation. Like, to have this autonomy over her body and her new life because it's become clearer and clearer that she's not an autonomous being.

Adam Rogers: She begins to understand that.

Lily Newmark: Yeah. She's very much under the control of these strange adults.

Adam Rogers: And these adults pose a threat to her, I guess. But she poses an even bigger threat to them, and that really becomes apparent in this episode. There's a scene where it seems like Dame Sylvia has the realization that Nibs could actually hurt her. Dame Sylvia is kind of a mother to her. What was filming the scene like?

Lily Newmark: That was a stressful scene to play out because it was the moment that I had to turn on Dame Sylvia when, up until that point, I had trusted her as a mother figure. I mean, she's essentially telling me that everything that I believe is not true. I can't trust her anymore. I mean, it's not, it's not necessarily because she's a child, either. I think if anyone, at any age, is told something that they, like, vehemently believe to be true is not, it's gonna make you deeply uncomfortable, possibly enraged. And she's asserting her power.

Adam Rogers: There's also a scene where Nibs won't look at the kind of scan of her robot body, which I found really striking. She just won't acknowledge it.

Lily Newmark: She wants to live in denial. She doesn't want to believe that she isn't human because she is in her mind. Why should she trust what these adults tell her anyway? Of course, she's looked in the mirror, and there's a moment that we're with Nibs in her room and she is staring at herself and poking herself in the eye. That happens after the Eye Midge attack, and I think that from that point on, she has to live in this state of denial because it's too terrifying to comprehend that she is not in her old body anymore, and she's not real.

Adam Rogers: While Nibs wrestles with her new body and old mind reconciling those two things, Slightly, is struggling to please the adults around him and he just wants to do the right thing. A lot like actor Adarsh Gourav, who says he brought a bit of himself into his character.

Adarsh Gourav: Before we started the show, me and Noah, we had, like, a brief meeting where we discussed the backstory. And, you know, I suggested if it was possible for Slightly to have, like, a relic from his past life and to whoever he is now. And Noah said, “Well, what would you like?” And I said, “Well, maybe Slightly wanted to be a cricketer when he was younger.” And so he has this cricket bat that he carries on his belt and that kind of made it very personal for me.

Adam Rogers: I'm glad you brought that up because I noticed the cricket padding in Slightly’s room and it's a lovely touch. You get a sense that all the Lost Boys are decorating their rooms in particular ways like any of us would do. Do you also play cricket?

Adarsh Gourav: I did. I mean, you know, in India you–like, nine out of ten people play cricket, it's, it's not a big deal. I didn't play at any professional level, but I'm very passionate about it too. I–it's probably the only sport I watch with a lot of enthusiasm even now. I’ll try to follow every match that's happening, especially when India plays.

Adam Rogers: So you got to infuse a little bit of your own childhood into the character, which is really cool that you had the freedom to do that. There's a, a lot in the episode where your character's experiencing the opposite of freedom. He's got all these interactions with adults that are controlling or manipulative. They all have their own goals and drives, and Slightly is in the middle, sort of trying to please everyone.

Adarsh Gourav: He's just trying to do the right thing. He's trying to be the right guy and trying to support his family and, you know, just as you said, trying to please and be the good boy in class.

Adam Rogers: He has Kirsh as sort of his minder—

Adarsh Gourav: Right.

Adam Rogers: Boy Kavalier as the clear sort of maker, you know, mad scientist in charge of things. He's also got Morrow literally living in his head. What does he think he owes all of those people?

Adarsh Gourav: I think with Kirsh and Boy K, there's definitely a sense of authority. So I often felt like they were kind of like my vice principal and principal at school. And there was a sense of distance, a sense of intimidation and fear. With Morrow, however, there was a sense of connect, maybe, because Slightly misses a father figure that he's close to. When you see Episode Four is when you realize that Morrow is very consciously kind of like grooming him and filling in that gap for Slightly. So I feel like even though initially there's that hesitancy and it, it starts off on the wrong foot, and rather violent interaction, but…I feel like Morrow is very quick to kind of realize what he's done and then, like, mend his ways and then find a way to befriend slightly and disarm him. I felt very disarmed when I, when I did the scene with Babou, who plays Morrow.

Adam Rogers: Slightly does have this other kind of interaction with all the Lost Boys, but then also specifically I'm thinking about with Smee, with Jonathan Ajayi. Those two handers have a really different energy, you know, than a lot of the rest of the show. I, so I wonder if you can talk about what it was like to play those especially intense moments. How much of that was you and him working on it versus what was on the page? What was that like?

Adarsh Gourav: I think I was just incredibly blessed to have an actor as amazing and as a human being as amazing as Jonathan as my co-actor. We just instantly hit it off and opened up to each other about our families, about our upbringings. And we were goofing around all the time. Um, I mean, at least for me, I spent the most amount of time with Jonathan when I was in Bangkok. So I was very, very comfortable with him and that really helped me in, you know, just allowing myself to be relaxed and to kind of just surrender myself to the scene, to the character.

Adam Rogers: They're also, to this point, very, funny together.

Adarsh Gourav: Yeah.

Adam Rogers: You get the kind of frisson of like, it's little kids talking. But also just the, you know, the interactions are just, it's fun to watch.

Adarsh Gourav: Also like, it's kind of like an adventure, right? For them to visit this site, where, like, there's so much action happening and like there's debris and there's like alien eggs and there's, like, fires and they're kind of like just in awe of everything that they're watching. I, I don't think they have that sense of seriousness about what's happening, 'cause Wendy, for example, or the other characters have a sense of purpose. But like, I feel like Jonathan and myself, for us it was more like going on a picnic or an adventure to this crash site and just kind of, like, reacting to things.

Adam Rogers: The kind of contrast between Nibs getting really traumatized by the stuff that happens the spaceship in, I guess in two, and Smee and Slightly being like, “Bro, did you see that?” You know, like, just like, “That was awesome. I, I can't believe I missed that.” Like, it's really a different approach.

Adarsh Gourav: It's like being teleported to a different reality from, like, being in Neverland, as both of us discussed, would've been such a, I mean, apart from the time that we spent with the other Lost Boys, would've been so full of, like, constantly being scrutinized and being watched and being under adult supervision. And suddenly we were, like, we had this sense of freedom, even though it was under very unfortunate circumstances about whatever was happening, the crash and everything. But for us, I feel like for me especially, there was a sense of freedom that I experienced for the first time on the show.

Adam Rogers: Slightly also is really jealous of Wendy, of Marcy, having contact with her family. Slightly also has some contact with his, although obviously it's under duress. Do you think contact with the family changes how a Lost Boy feels about being a Hybrid?

Adarsh Gourav: Yeah, I think as a Lost Boy when you see another Lost Boy being in touch with their family, you kind of start getting reminded of your past much more, which you're not supposed to remember in a way. And that kind of takes you to, like, a darker place. It's a reminder of your darker past about what you went through before you came here, your relationship with your parents, your siblings. Yeah, hence in Episode Four when I see Wendy interacting with Joe, there's a sense of, “Hey, this is unfair. Why does she get to do all of this and not us?” I feel like it's a very natural emotion to feel like, and I've felt that as Adarsh so many times.

Adam Rogers: With the heightened aspect of then making the decision to, to feed the brother to a Face Hugger.

Adarsh Gourav: Yeah, well. But that, that was also like a survival move. I had to do that 'cause I was being blackmailed to do that.

Adam Rogers: Right. As a viewer, you have to make a call from the outside of whether there's, that's rationalization or whether that's actually what, you know, how much is with the extortion? How much was it he was already jealous? Like there's a kind of narrative push to try to figure out what's going on there.

Adarsh Gourav: Yeah, it's like the friends versus family thing, right? Who do you choose?

Adam Rogers: Finally, a quick story. Probably not true. In 1650, Renee Descartes, the “I think, therefore I am” mind-body duality guy was so distraught over the death of his five-year-old daughter that he had built an automaton replica of her. A lookalike clockwork robot. Which he then put into a coffin and took on a sea voyage to Sweden. Curious sailors pried opened the coffin, at which point the robot girl suddenly just sat up. Which freaked out the sailors so much that they promptly tossed it overboard. My point is even the guy who is literally why we call the split between mind or soul and body the Cartesian duality still wanted a robot version of his dead daughter. Was the robot somehow actually a daughter? What makes a person that person? Let's ask Sydney Chandler, who plays Wendy.

Sydney Chandler: I think emotion and memory is our consciousness. That is what creates a person, to a vast extent. And what I found interesting with the mashup of synthetic and then a human mind is, I believe a lot of emotion and memory lives in the natural human body. And so to have that taken away, what would that do to the psyche? If dogs used to scare you and you're in this new body and you see a dog, you're used to getting sweaty palms or your heart rate accelerates, and that doesn't happen in this body. And so there would be some major shifts in identity, because you've lost a massive part of you, if you go down the road of a body holding emotion. And so I think that's a big question as well, how much is your physical being a part of you versus the soul.

Adam Rogers: That actually varies from Hybrids to Hybrids even, the responses to seeing all the different kinds of horrible monsters that they face. Because they're largely invulnerable to harm from them. But they're still scared, even though they maybe don't have to be. And, and with, with Wendy especially, who basically has superpowers at this point.

Sydney Chandler: Oh, yeah.

Adam Rogers: Even if it's actually a downloaded mind and not just a really good copy of memories, as soon as they're in that new body, they're diverging from what they would have been, had they stayed in their human bodies, because their physical experience of the world is different.

Sydney Chandler: Yeah. I think there's a massive dissonance, and that's the beauty of being able to take on a job like this, is there is not an answer. You can't create your character in a straight line because you don't know where the character is going. You don't know how much of her exists anymore or doesn't. And that's the big question I think, for Alex, who plays Joe. The hope that is my sibling and the absolute fear that it isn't, or maybe that it is, what does that mean? It's unnatural in every way. And I think for Wendy, she's lucky to be distracted by having her brother to focus on.

Adam Rogers: So she has that connection to her humanity and her past that the other Hybrids don't. But even he refuses to answer the question of whether she's still his sister. And my understanding is that in scenes he was very careful about whether he was calling you Wendy or calling you Marcy.

Sydney Chandler: Yeah. So for Wendy, and this was always really important for me, even though it doesn't necessarily show up in the show, but when she sees her brother for the first time, she is a thousand percent sure that he will recognize her as Marcy. Even though she's in a different body, even though she's standing at his height now, and is an adult woman, he'll recognize her. That's my sister, that's Marcy. And when she finally opens up to him about it, and he's unsure, there's pain there, and there's also an insane amount of frustration. That's my sibling and why can't he see the soul behind the vessel? And so when he would bring the name Wendy in instead of Marcy, it was like him putting a question mark on her identity. And it changes with everyone. She's a-okay with being called Wendy with everyone at Neverland, but when it comes to family, when it comes to the only person that knows her inside and out, it's more important for her than she will let on.

Adam Rogers: The other Hybrids make similar determinations about how they're going to identify. Tootles says, “I'm Isaac now. ‘Cause I'm a brilliant scientist.” There's a politics of identity there even beyond just humanness. The lack of certainty there is the narratively interesting part of that.

Sydney Chandler: And I think that's the majority of kids too, and then this just adds an extra massive challenge. But you know, when you're young and you decide, “I like dinosaurs,” all of a sudden your whole room is covered in dinosaurs. You're the dinosaur kid. And that's really important to you. And so, you know, with Tootles becoming Isaac, he is a scientist and he can hold on to that. That's real. All the other questions are too scary to think about. They're too hard to think about. There are no answers, and that's very terrifying for anyone, let alone a kid.

Adam Rogers: That's all for this week's episode of Alien: Earth - The Official Podcast. Next week, the final frontier. These are the voyages of the USCSS Maginot. That's next time, Episode Five of FX’s Alien: Earth. Hey, if you can rate, review and follow Alien: Earth – The Official Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Adam Rogers, and I'll see you here next week.